Welcome And What Hiring Strategies Does

Amy Dardis 0:10

This is the Building a Clear Authentic Brand podcast, and I'm your host, Amy Dardis. And today I am so excited to have Kim Leifsen on the show. She's the founder of Hiring Strategies, and they specialize in employee hiring and retention, specifically helping small to mid-sized business leaders attract, engage, and keep their team. So, Kim, thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 2 0:36

Thank you for having me, Amy. This is exciting.

Amy Dardis 0:39

So you have hiring strategies. And how about just in your own words, tell us a little bit about like what you guys do and how you help businesses?

Speaker 2 0:51

Yeah, thank you. So I like to tell people that I don't do recruiting, I teach recruiting. And it's all about create that allows people to be their best selves. Because if people can be their best selves, then they're going home their best person. They're going into their communities, their best person. And when they're at work, if they're their best selves, they're creating the best work, the best culture, the best teams. And so I fully believe that when we can do that, everybody benefits. And so I work with leaders, do a lot of leadership development, a lot of leadership coaching, creating culture around how do we attract, engage, and keep top performing people.

Amy Dardis 1:34

I love what you said about like helping people be their best selves. So if you were to like dive into and explain that a little bit more, what how would you, what does it look like for someone to like be their best self?

Speaker 2 1:46

Well, I'll kind of tell you, I'll tell you a little bit of a story, a little bit of background about me and how this came about. So I grew up with a father who hated his job. And he did that job for 50 years. And you can imagine

Being Your Best Self At Work

Speaker 2 2:00

the implications of that, right? When he comes home, what that's like, just the fact that he's thinking about going to work tomorrow and the stress of that. It's difficult. So we were constantly walking on eggshells. He was, he worked like the work ethic was beyond anybody I know. He worked 12 to 14 hour days six days a week. So it wasn't that he wasn't trying. It wasn't that he had a bad attitude. It wasn't that, you know, he didn't like the work itself. It had a lot to do with the culture of the organization he was working with and the leaders he was working for. And so they weren't getting the best him every day. So what is the best, right? The best is when I come to work and I can be who I am at my best, most natural self, and I'm not having to mold myself into something that I'm not in order to be effective. Now, is there ever any job that's going to fit 100% of the people 100% of the time? No, that doesn't exist. There's always that one person, that one task, that one client that you're gonna have to get outside of who you are, get a little uncomfortable in order to achieve what it is you want to achieve. But that's the key. The key is are we? I'm sure you've had people say to you before, Amy, Amy, this is a growth opportunity for you. You gotta stretch and get outside those comfort zones, right? Well, that's true. You want intended outcome of that stretching. If you don't want the outcome of that stretching, we don't want you to be something that you're not. We want you to own who you are, know who you are, be who you are, put yourself in a culture and with people that are going to allow you to be you, to be your best, most natural self so that you can be successful and the people around you and the organization can be successful. But there is always that one, you know, we we all have to stretch a little bit and get outside of our comfort zones at times. But it's knowing how often am I doing that. Am I doing that eight hours a day, six days a week, 10 hours a day, six days a week, or am I doing it for an hour once a week, right? That's different. That's an okay that that that's still allowing you to be your best, most natural self most of the time. So it a lot of it has to do with helping people become self-aware of who they are. I typically don't tell anybody anything they don't already know about themselves. I'm just defining those comfort zones for them and showing them how they compare to the population so that they can go, oh, I'm unique. I'm different. I offer something. I have something unique and exciting to offer the workplace or the world, right? But that means I'm different. So people aren't gonna really understand me. So I'm gonna have to stretch a little bit in order to come to fruition. So my dad was stretching too far for too long. And when we ask people to stretch too far for too long, they actually get physically ill. They have mental breakdowns, they we have burnout, right? Yeah. And so we want to minimize that as much as possible. And I, at a very young age, I saw that. I was like, wait a minute, this doesn't have to, you have skills, you can go somewhere else. But he wasn't self-confident in who he was and what he was capable of to go find something else. So the implications of that are great for kids, for communities. So I want to help put people in roles where they go to work and they're exhausted by the end of the day, right? We all want to work hard. But at the end of the day, I'm excited to come back tomorrow to get to further that work to that, because I believe in what I'm doing. And I'm on a team where we're all working together and we're collaborating and we're we're achieving something. Or you're going to work and you're being an independent contributor, but you know that what you're doing is having an impact on something. That's what being your best, most natural self is about. It's about owning who you are, being who you are, and putting yourself in situations and with people where you get to just be you and reaping the benefits of that, of who you are in the workplace with your family and with the and within the community.

Amy Dardis 6:16

Yeah. I've felt that both sides of that, right? Like I've I've been in those roles that were just drained me. And what do they call it? Like the Sunday scaries or something, or is that what the term is where Sunday night? Sunday night. Yeah. Something like I don't know what the term is, but I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Where it's like Sunday night comes around and it used that that dread comes over you. And then like the closer you get to the weekend, like the more like you're like, oh, it's Friday. And like you feel like I'm free. I can like, you know, be myself and have fun. And then and then it's that cycle. And I watched my husband go through that too with with jobs he had previously. And then I've also gotten to experience the other side of like finally knowing like this is my natural wiring. This is my best self. And when I work in these roles, I love it. I I love to work, I love the contribution that I feel, the value I feel. But I also get to see that it's making a difference for, you know, the role and the business that I'm in. And that's a really great feeling for people to have.

unknown 7:20

Yeah.

Amy Dardis 7:21

So you actually do that. So you help businesses actually find, find out what this is. It's not just some arbitrary, like, oh, your best self. You know, you actually have a scientific way to help people do this.

Speaker 2 7:34

Yeah, it's a lot about part of that is defining the role correctly, right? It's what kind of work do we have and what kind of person is gonna fit doing that work well? What kind of behaviors are necessary for the person to succeed in this role, doing this kind of work? And a lot of the um turnover that I see happen, a lot of the misplacement that I see occur, especially right now, people are frustrated with the younger generations and when they come into work, oh my gosh, they were here for a month and then they quit, right? They have no work ethic. They don't know what it means to sacrifice. Well, what I really see happening more often than not, probably 80% of the time that that occurs, what happens is they read a job description online that said, Hey, come work for us. We have this great work environment. You're gonna do X. And so they go, Oh, cool, and they apply to this job to go do X. And then they get into that role, and it's a toxic work environment. If the job is nothing like it was described in the job description, and so they're like, I don't want to work here, I don't want to do that kind of work. But so they were, I don't want to say it was intentionally misleading. It was just not being defined well enough for you to attract the right person, right? So we're seeing turnover because we're not necessarily defining the work, and we we don't necessarily know what kind of person fits our organization the best. So yeah, it's helping define that, uh, define the work better and then finding the right person behaviorally. Do they have the skills? Do they have the desire? And then do they fit behaviorally in your organization, working on your team with you as the hiring manager? I'm sure you've heard the statistic that people don't leave jobs, right? They leave managers, they leave people. And so a lot of the time it's that we didn't define what it was like to work for that hiring manager. And so when that person gets in and they discover that that's a micromanager, or I actually see the the opposite more often, where there's a hiring manager who doesn't give enough of the structure, right? Who doesn't tell them what they want them to do and how they want them to do it. They just kind of throw, say, here's what I want to happen, and then they walk away. And that person's going, wait, I have no background, I have no experience. I don't know. I actually experienced that myself. I was thrown into a role where it wasn't, I was supposed to be a customer service person and I was ended up doing data management. And I was like, wait, what am I doing? I don't even, I don't have no, no background in this whatsoever. And I ended up quitting because it

Stretching Too Far Leads To Burnout

Speaker 2 10:30

wasn't the job that I applied for. So, and it was a toxic leader in that role as well. And so that's what I'm seeing more than not right now. And so there is a scientific process. There is, there are things that you can do to increase your effectiveness on both sides of that.

Amy Dardis 10:50

So, what so what does that look like? Like that can you like share us like a story or an example of a client you worked with and kind of like how you actually help them find this?

Speaker 2 11:02

Yeah. So there's kind of pieces to it, right? The first piece is defining that job. So let's define by using tools by using. Um, I use what's called the profile XT or the PXT select. And that's a tool that allows you to take a job description or for you to answer a survey and to say, okay, what are the behaviors that I need for this role? And so it's scientifically done. It's not a guess, right? And so we create a job description with the skills and and experience necessary, but then we also add in the behaviors. Like you need to be someone who enjoys structure, right? Or you need to be someone who enjoys a fast-paced environment, or you need to be someone who really likes to deliberate over information before you make a decision. This can't be someone who's a quick decision maker. Those sorts of things are important for two reasons. One, to define the role accurately. And two, for someone to be able to opt themselves in, or more importantly, opt themselves out, right? If I say to you, I want you to answer the phone, or your job, if the job description is to answer the phone, then if I'm a candidate looking for a job, I can I read that and I go, oh, I can answer the phone. That's easy, right? But if I answer the phone and now all of a sudden I'm in this role and I think all I have to do is answer the phone, but now you're telling me that I have to route those calls to specific, to very specific people, and I have to know who to route those calls to. And oh, by the way, I'm using a very complicated phone system in order to do that. And I'm not a technology person. And I'm also an introvert, and you're telling me that I have to be the first voice of someone for your organization. Like all of a sudden, all this pressure happens when I thought all I was gonna do is answer the phone. So we're we, the first thing we do is create that job description with the behaviors, as well as I like to create job descriptions that have a rubric for performance. So we take the skills and we break down, okay, who is what what does answering the phone effectively look like? Right? What is that? So we define it as here's what meets expectations, here's below expectations, here's exceeding expectations. And we actually put those in the job description description because again, I want people to opt themselves out, right? I want them to go, I'm not good at doing that at that level. So I'm not going to apply. Or I might apply if I'm not good at that level, but I'm gonna ask you some very specific questions about the kind of coaching you're gonna give me, right? So now we're giving them more the candidate more information. So we're we're building job descriptions. That's the first step.

unknown 13:55

Okay.

Speaker 2 13:56

The second step is looking at the hiring manager and the team and actually assessing them and saying, who are you and what kind of person is gonna work best with you? Because I can bring someone in who's qualified. But if the two of you don't get along, then this isn't good for anybody. So I want to show you where there's potential conflict, where there could be conflict, so that you can have that conversation proactively before you bring this person on board. Here's how I like to do things. Here's how you like to do things. We're different. That's okay. Different's okay. But in this environment, we need X. And I, as a leader, need X because I'm not good at managing that kind of behavior. Am I I feel like I'm babbling a little bit?

Amy Dardis 14:40

No, no, no. You're doing great. No, I think this is so important because the these are things that I think leaders or owners go through and they're like, oh my gosh, I've been in that situation. But we just kind of do you find that people think that, oh, this is just how it is, versus realizing that there actually is a way to prevent a lot of a lot of these things through the hiring process and how they actually hire.

Speaker 2 15:08

No, you're absolutely right. They think that I just have to put a I have to write a description that I can put online somewhere and a hope that I get the right person. There's actually a process that you can go through. And so let me go back to that process a little bit. So once we've we've assessed the manager and the team to find out what kind of person's gonna work best on that team, then we can start assessing candidates and comparing candidates to that team, to that job, who's got the best fit. And I'll tell you that there's usually no one right answer. There can be two or three candidates who would who are qualified technically to do the job. But so they could all three come in and do the job, but I, as the hiring manager, have to decide which one I'm best capable of managing. Cause there are some traits that some managers are really good at managing and others that they're not. And every leader is different. And so one manager might be really good at managing someone who is social, right? They like to come in and they like to talk and they like to build relationships. And I can manage that. Like they can, they can have conversations in the office as long as they get their work done. But that now I know as the leader, if I've got, if I'm hiring someone social, I'm gonna have to manage that a little bit. So I'm prepared to do that. And I have coaching tips and guides on how to do that with that specific individual based on who I am, right? So now I have coaching tips about how what's gonna be the easiest way for me to manage that. And it might be different than another how another manager might manage that. So we think that managing people and hiring people, like you said, is this is just the way it's done, and it's super simple, but we all know it's not. It's super simple, and there's just this one way, and this is the way it is. It's actually very complicated, but we can make it easier with data and with systems and with processes. And so that's really what I try to do is bring those systems and processes and data to a leader to coach and develop them around how do I be more effective at attracting, engaging, and keeping people.

Amy Dardis 17:26

And that uh PXT assessment, it it's really analyzing three different areas of a of a person in a team, right?

Speaker 2 17:36

Yeah, right. It's measuring um cognitive. So how not intelligence, very different, right? Intelligence is about how big is your boat, how much it's about capacity, how much stuff can we put in your boat. We're not measuring that with a PXT select. We're measuring how big is the opening to your boat, how quickly can I fill that boat? Some people are teaspoon people. You've got to give them information in bite-sized chunks repetitively over time. Some people are the giant fire hose people, right? You're gonna give them all the information, they'll sort it out and deal with it and move on to the next thing. And that doesn't mean that that person's more intelligent than the other person. I know presidents of companies, lawyers, doctors, CPAs, entrepreneurs who are on that left side, who are the people who need things in teaspoon bites. But once it's in, they're in and they're good to go. So they're just as intelligent. You just got to feed it to them in a different manner. And so, knowing that about your employees, how do I train this person? How what's the best way to get the most information into them? You're gonna do you're gonna train differently depending on how their brains are wired. So, cognitive is the first section. The second section is the behavior section that I've been talking about. Behaviorally, how do they, how are they wired to naturally behave, right? Again, everybody can stretch and get outside of of who they are in their natural comfort zones. But if they were just thrown into a situation and were to react, what is that normal reaction that you're gonna get, those normal behaviors for them? And then the third section is passion. What do they like to do? What gets them out of bed and excited to come to work every day? Because if we're asking someone in the behavioral traits section to stretch to get uncomfortable, they're only gonna want to get uncomfortable if they're passionate about what they're doing. So having some passion around the type of work that you're doing every day is important on lots of for lots of reasons, but especially if we need someone to get uncomfortable. So yeah, those are the three sections that

Why Turnover Starts With Role Clarity

Speaker 2 19:40

we measure with the PXT select.

Amy Dardis 19:43

And I love that you you guys are doing it. You use this in the hiring process because these are things that eventually owners or managers learn about their employees, but oftentimes maybe too far down the road where there's been like there's been some consequences from that, that they're like, man, if I could have just avoided this, and then that's where we see higher turnover or lower engagement. But you're saying like there is a way to actually look into these things up front based on, you know, an assessment that's not even, and it's and you said like this assessment actually is not like a personality test, it's not like a disc test, or you know, because some people be like, well, personality tests, you know, you're just throwing me in a box, you know. But this isn't that. No, it's not.

Speaker 2 20:35

Personality, I like to describe the difference as personality is that that stretching, right? How far can you stretch? Who do you show up as in in one setting versus another setting? I can I can show up in a professional setting very different than I show up in a social setting, if I so choose, right? I have that ability. That's my personality. It's how what's my I guess it's the I guess the way I would describe that is how far can I stretch, right? And for how long can I stretch? That's personality. What we're measuring with the PXT select is if you could just be you at your best most natural self, how's that gonna show up? Psychologists and psychometricians, who are the people who study the measurement of behavior, they call that core trait or true trait. I call it in layman's terms comfort zones, right? It's who you are at your best most natural self. So it is not like Disk and Myers Briggs, and there's there's thousands of them out there on the market, right? They those are great tools. They're great tools for how do I communicate? How do I work on a team? What is my style? What are my tendencies, right? But those aren't legal hiring tools because they're too broad, right? If we try to put humans in a four bucket, right, that's it's too broad. So with the PXT select, we've got five cognitive measures, we've got nine behavioral. behavioral measures and we've got six interest measures. And so with that combination, there's some there's something like 40 billion different possible combinations. That's more human than four boxes, right? For sure. And so that so the PXT select is actually a legal valid hiring tool. The disc, although people do use them that way, I don't recommend it. You can get yourself into some trouble. Those are not legal hiring tools. They're great team building tools. They're great coaching tools, but they're not legal hiring tools that you can make a hiring decision based on because they're not pinpoint accurate as well as much as the PXT select us.

Amy Dardis 22:43

And the with when it comes to like using a tool for the first time like the PXT like what are some of the common resistance or fears that you like run into with a business owner who's never used it before but they're like can I really trust this? Like you know like what's their kind of like hesitancy that you run into just that right it's do I trust this data.

Speaker 2 23:10

So I usually don't allow an organization or a leader to use the PXT select without them taking it first.

Speaker 1 23:19

Okay.

Speaker 2 23:19

Because I want them to see how it feels right I want them to see what their people are going to be experiencing. And it's very what they what they discover is it's easy. It's painless I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tell you anything you don't already know about yourself. And they also discover that it's crazy accurate. And so they're like wow this is like right on and then we do a couple members of their team and they see oh yeah that's right on that's exactly how he responds right and then they go but now I know now I know that about them I can direct which I already kind of knew that about them but now that I know that about them I'm gonna start to give them work differently. I'm gonna start to interact with them differently because I know what's gonna make them successful. And so it's that I just not sure what it is and how it works. And so there's a little bit of scary and anything new. But once they do it and they experience it and they experience the power of empowering your team empowering your team with work that fits who they are and allows them to go home exhausted at the end of the day but excited to come back tomorrow is what gets the buy-in right there they're like that's this is powerful information.

Amy Dardis 24:39

That's probably the biggest objection that I get the biggest fear other than that that that's really it's just the fear of the unknown you know yeah yeah and you I love that one you you basically prove that concept with them of one using it with them and then using it with people they already know so that way they're like oh I knew this about this person and then here's this assessment that now tells me this about this person. So I can trust its accuracy. And then you also when you do the PXC assessment you said you you you do it on the candidates and then you review the results with the candidates but then you also review the results with the employer. So you're not just like sending them a a form like you're or a or a results like you're actually walking through it with them and explaining this is what this means and this is what it looks like and this is what you should be concerned about. Like you really add your expertise and your insight into the process.

Speaker 2 25:40

Yeah I can go as far as a client wants me to go but we usually start off with I'm giving the report I'm doing the report reviews with the team, the manager, the candidates because I want the candidates to understand what they're walking into before they walk into it. So we don't we share the we share the data we we share the candidates personal data for themselves but then we also share what does the team you're walking into look like we share that hiring manager's data. We share the team's data we say here's where there could be some conflict for you here's where you don't fit so you're gonna have to do some stretching and they're gonna have to do some stretching here's how they're committing to doing the stretching how are you committing what what are you committing to stretch to so that they're going in with eyes wide open knowing okay I actually had a client a candidate we sat down and did his data we talked to I talked to him about the hiring manager who happened to be the CEO and uh the candidate looked at me and said my gosh I went into this job interview this process looking for a new job thinking I needed to win this job. Like that's what we're taught to do, right? You put your best foot forward you put your you you mitigate your weaknesses you you know hide all the things that are bad about you and you put you know you on display it's a it's a it's really a staged event. And so he was like I'm going I went into this thinking I needed to win this job. But he goes I realize now that I've worked with that kind of leader before and I don't want to do that again. And so he said I'm thinking about this very differently now and that's often how it goes right candidates go, I see what I need now and so I can go find what I need.

Building Job Descriptions With Behaviors

Speaker 2 27:40

So that CEO said thank you because you just saved me six months two years of this employer figurate right hundreds of thousands of dollars when you're talking about execs going you know him walking out eventually because this is not what he signed up for. It's not what he thought it was. So that is that's a pretty typical experience. That's what it looks like.

Amy Dardis 28:06

And it because it never works out for anyone like it I mean if it's a bad fit it's it it's a it hurts both the business the leaders and the candidates like it's not a win for anyone in any regard. Nope. So nipping it in the butt at the very beginning and then also giving them that confidence and that peace knowing that hey you are making a good decision by walking away and not pursuing this further.

Speaker 2 28:32

I also tell you another story I recently did feedback for this happened to be it wasn't a candidate for a job it was just someone who wanted some more insight into himself. And so I did his PXT select and he literally started crying when I was giving the feedback because he realized that he had spent an entire career 20 30 years. He was essentially my dad right he had 20 30 years trying to pigeon you know shoe himself into a role that did not fit who he was and so and he had left and was kind of trying to find his way and he saw the results and he was like yes this is who I am and I've been trying for so long to be something that I'm not and now I'm giving myself permission to who I am and put myself in roles and with people where who I am benefits them. And it's not just benefiting them it's benefiting me. Right. So when you think about the implications of that for individuals for families for communities for teams for organizations like it's the ripple effect is significant significant and so that's why I do what I do because it's about turning work into passion. And that sounds so cliche right it sounds like oh again like everybody can we all we all say that we should be passionate about our work but who can really do that? No, you really can. If you know who you are and you know what's going to fit you, you can go out in search of it. But oftentimes as individuals we have these comfort zones these things that are comfortable that we can't really define. We just know that we're uncomfortable in that situation or we're really comfortable in that situation or we're really good at that but we can't put words to it. And so trying to go out and find that is becomes difficult when you can't define it, right? Can't define it. You can't look for it. And so that's what I want to help people do is define it. And then on the flip side help organizations to understand their role in families and communities. Right huge it's huge. And so they have an obligation to find people who fit and people have an obligation to find roles that fit them. And I want to facilitate that.

Amy Dardis 31:03

That's right I think that's amazing and I think that's so important because it it like how much time do we spend at work and work is good. You know it's like we're like work doesn't have to be this bad thing. It's like we get to go and get to develop and be challenged and contribute and know that like there's purpose and meaning in the in the time that we're spending in our lives especially when we choose to spend that time away from our family you know and it it's like we're always making these choices but somewhere along the way we kind of just we get stuck in this rut and and we it's little by little getting weighed down and kind of forgetting that it it doesn't have to feel like that. It doesn't have to be that way. And I love that it it is a focus on like understanding the natural wiring of the individual but also how that natural wiring fits into the organization itself.

Speaker 2 32:01

And it is a unique fit and it's not specific to the job or the role necessarily I mean sometimes it can be but often right there are roles there are jobs that require certain behavior like for example sales right you need someone who's social who gets joy from building relationships. It's not that an introvert can't be successful in a sales role but they have to be very intentional every day about being uncomfortable. That's what I want people to think about is be intentional about the kind of work that you're doing. So yes you know there are roles that require certain kinds of behaviors. So the role it is important to fit the role just as much as it is important to fit the team but we we spend a lot more time on skill.

Amy Dardis 32:48

Yeah we are we are really good at assessing skill we are really bad at assessing fit to the role or to the team why do you why do you think that is or what what do you think are some of the c common common causes for struggling with the fit side it's a really good question.

Speaker 2 33:08

I think because we've never been taught that that's what we should do. And so we don't know how to do it really it's a historical thing. It's just the like you said before we just assume that there's a process for hiring and we all know what that is right we write a job description we post it on a deed and we wait. Right? That and and then eventually someone will find us and then we hope that it's gonna work out that's that's the way people think that job searches and open positions and job hunting works and it's not and there are better ways to do that. And so you know yeah I I don't I don't know that I don't have a good answer for it but I think it's just historically that's the way it's been and so learning a different way learning a different process is helpful. And there are a lot of recruiters I work with well you know TJ Kessling ambassador group you know he's really disrupting the recruiting world he's figuring out recruiting from a completely different perspective. And often you know we he and I both run into with clients this is a new way and so maybe this is one of those objections right why should I have to do all that work like that's a lot of work. Yeah it is hiring someone is not easy it's like getting married right you're not gonna you're not gonna desire

PXT Select Explained Cognitive Behavior Passion

Speaker 2 34:40

the first you're not gonna get marry the first person that comes along hopefully no it doesn't generally work out that well I guess sometimes maybe on these new TV shows but I don't think long term recruit works. It's the same thing with recruiting right you have to put in the work to make sure that this relationship is going to be a positive one for you and for you owe it to your employees to make sure that this is going to be a positive relationship for them too. But a lot of times they don't want to put in that work. So learning a new way of doing something is really hard when you're busy yes yes and TJ and ambassador group and the and hiring strategies we're really coming up with new ways to to make it more effective to make it more efficient so that both organizations and people are successful at work.

Amy Dardis 35:36

And you're you have on your on your site you have this um these gears and I think there's are there nine gears but it's like three attract engage keep are kind of the three can you just like explain like what that means and and why why there's all these different parts to this people aspect of work yeah thank you that's a great question.

Speaker 2 36:02

So I spent the first part of my career in recruiting and inside lots of organizations learning what they were doing that was either successful or not successful in attracting, engaging and keeping people and what I figured out over a decade or more was there are certain things that organizations do that help them be successful at attracting engaging and keeping and there are certain things that organizations do that really hurt them when it comes to attracting engaging and keeping people and so I put together this list of nine things that I was seeing in organizations that if the organizations would do these nine things, then they were creating an environment that naturally produced good employees that would that would a system that would attract, engage and keep good employees. And so those nine things are you know having a purpose people think that purpose is all this warm and like I don't care just come to work and do your work right well again if you want someone to come and be bought in and transform your organization and help you innovate and help you problem solve that's not someone who just wants a paycheck right that's someone who's bought into what you're doing and they want to be there on a daily basis and they want to come back every day to help you solve the problems. Give them something to solve that purpose is something that you're solving. The purpose is a big one. People don't realize that there I just did a blog and a or a my own podcast on mission statements and purpose and how important that is people will actually think about joining your organization, go to your website, see your mission statement and go, that's boring I'm out. So you don't even know that it's repelling top performers. So purpose is really really important. The next one is well there's lots so I'm trying to think which one's the next most important leadership development right leadership mindset. I think those two purpose and leadership development are the two probably most important ones because if you have a toxic leader or a leader who just doesn't know what they're doing, then that's going to repel top performers and it will also attract top performers if you have good ones. I have watched employees jump from one company to the next to the next to the next following a leader because a leader was so good. I've actually seen that happen. I think this leader went to like seven different employers because she was kind of brought in to fix things and um an employee followed her at every single organization. So and we see it on sports teams, right? We see it yeah in lots of different environments. So you might be repelling people or attracting people based on whether or not you're developing leadership in your organization. Another one is integrity and values. If your values are just words on a wall and you're not living them and your employees see that you're not living them, then they're going to walk away to somewhere that values their values, right? So they're gonna go to work for a place that has this has similar values to what they have. And a lot of organizations think that that's just fluff and it's not important. It's absolutely important and it could be one of the reasons that people are leaving your organization and you just don't know it. Another one is impact or is is outcomes right employees want to know what they need to know in the job description not just what they're gonna do, but what the outcome is of them doing that thing. So again we talk I'll use the answering the phones example we already talked about that right they don't want to know that they just have to answer the phone. They want to know what's going to happen because they're answering the phone the people are going to get to the right places that you're gonna be they're gonna be the face of the organization and draw people in that's an important the knowing that outcome is important to me being able to answer the phone correctly right so if we're not defining jobs with outcomes, which if you go on Indeed and you look, the majority of them are very skill based. Yes they're not outcome based at all. So writing job descriptions with outcomes is probably I think that was number four, right? Did I am I at four? Another one is what's in it for the employee are you talking at all about is it in your job description? Do you talk during the review process about how that employee is impacting your organization? What are they doing? Not just the outcomes but because they achieved that outcome what happened? How is that impacting the team? How is that impacting the organization and the purpose that they're important letting them know that they're important in your organization is absolutely critical to someone staying for the long term they'll come in and have some impact in the beginning but if they become just this person is doing the job and they don't see how they're impact then they're going to go somewhere else where they can have impact. So impact is really important. There are two that only affect the attract portion of attract, engage and keep and one of those is networking, knowing who the top performers are in your industry and and going out and meeting them. Okay not not so that you have someone that you can poach from another organization. That is not the intent of this the intent of this is to know who do I call when I do have something available in my organization to say who do you know might be interested in this role I have available. Because you want to be able to network with the top performers in your industry for every role that you have to fill. I think the big one of the biggest mistakes organizations make is they have they hire recruiters and those recruiters are only working when they have open positions. What those recruiters should be doing is looking at a list of who are the um what are the roles in our organization and I'm going to go out and build relationships with those people who do network. And so they should be at industry um associations they should be in the marketplace they should never be in the office they should be social people right they should be people who want to build relationships. Guess what the majority of recruiters and HR people are they're introverts. Yeah so wild so networking and recruiting is another really important one another important one is effective and efficient hiring systems I have seen really lean hiring systems where all we do is look at a resume do a quick interview and hire a person. Oh yeah I've seen a lot of those that's efficient it's not effective it's not effective I've also seen really long like multiple interviews you bring the person back three times you're on Zoom you've done Zoom interviews there's panels of 10 people who are interviewing this person and it's taken weeks and then you don't get back to that person. And that's not efficient or effective no so it's it's important to look at your system and say what do we need in this process in order to have it be efficient and effective every role I think is going to be different. Because it depends on the level of the organization depends on how many skills this person has to have it depends on the behavioral fit who needs to be involved on the team right and in the process. So having an effective and efficient hiring system is is another one. Yeah one is having fair equitable and competitive pay systems If your pay systems are not fair, equitable, and competitive, it doesn't matter what you do, who you bring in, you will not attract or keep people. So that's just a real easy, simple one. What am I missing? And then job fit, right? It's the fit to the team, fit to the manager, fit to the job. And that involves using assessments. PXT select, we also use emotional intelligence tools to make sure that this person is going to fit your culture and your values. So job fit, I think that's all of them. Did I name nine? Purpose, integrity, outcomes, impact, networking, leadership, job fit, fair and equitable pay. Yeah, that's all mine.

Amy Dardis 44:39

All these things, yeah. And you're right. That it is a lot that goes into people, but people, I mean, I think people are your most important part of the business. And so if you spend the majority of your time investing into people, hiring, developing, attracting, engaging, they they will invest the majority of their time into driving everything else in your business. Unless you're a solopreneur like me.

Speaker 2 45:08

Well, unless you're a solopreneur, the work doesn't get done without people. So who's taking care of your clients, right? My uh first job out of college, I worked for the Frank Russell Company, which is if you know the Russell 1000 and 2000 on the stock exchange, that's the Frank Russell Company. Okay, okay. They, I had the founder's grandson did my new hire orientation. And he said something that changed my career. He said, he said, if you hire people who are smarter than you and you take care of those people, those people will take care of your clients who will then take care of you. It's a circle, right? And I think we're so focused sometimes on taking care of the clients that we miss the people who are serving those clients. And so I think that's a really important piece of the puzzle that we're not focusing enough on.

Amy Dardis 46:04

So I just have a couple more questions. So one of it is when it comes to like, I mean, because you've done a lot of these, you've met with probably thousands, hundreds, thousands of people over the years. Like you've been doing this a long time. You've worked with all kinds of different businesses and sizes. So one, how often are you finding that this while you're while you

Making Candidates And Managers Choose Wisely

Amy Dardis 46:30

say you're not you're not telling them anything that they don't already know? But how often are you kind of helping them put words to something maybe that they're like, now this makes sense? Like now, like they're you're seeing these light bulbs go on that maybe they didn't, maybe they couldn't articulate even to themselves why some previous roles hadn't worked out in the past. Like, are you finding that a lot?

Speaker 2 46:54

A lot. Um, another example. So I gave the example of the gentleman who walked away from a leader, right? Executive level, because he realized, oh, I don't need to win this job. That's one example. Another example was I was doing feedback for a leader in an organization, and she looked at me and she said, This is why I'm struggling. This is why I'm struggling. I know this about myself, but what you just described to me was the role requires X. And I'm a and I'm trying to be X every day, and that's not who I am. And I need to not be a leader anymore. I need to go back to doing the work. Yes, yes, that that's a win in my book, right? Even the organization was like, yeah, that's a good, she we figured out why she was struggling. Yeah. So we're gonna find someone who fits, right? And they're not, they're not gonna struggle because they're better fit for the role. But it happens all the time, Amy. The the aha moments, the the now I understand why moments, the I don't want to hire someone that is going to be difficult for me to manage moments because I think in the past, it just as much as it's always been I need a job, it's also been I just need an employee. Yeah. Just need someone to sit in the chair and do the work. They just need to come in and do the work. Well, it's not that simple. It's just not. We've made it, we've we've pretended for a really long time that it was that simple, but it's not. And the younger generations are figuring out by watching their parents, they've figured out I'm not gonna tolerate that. No, I'm not gonna give 30 years of my life to an employer who's going to lay me off, right? I'm gonna go get experience in lots of different organizations. I'm gonna build my resume. I'm going to do things that make me happy, that I'm not gonna hate going to work every day, right? I'm a product of that. I'm not gonna do that. Yes. And so we can't expect as employers that that mentality of I just need an employee in a chair is gonna work anymore. It's not, it's simply not. And so doing it different is is critical.

Amy Dardis 49:19

And you haven't not for the employer, but for the just the people. Uh, the rubber band analogy that I think is super good. Like, super, like very simple, but very like, oh man, that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 49:34

Yeah. Yeah. So the rubber band theory is those people that have to stretch, right? I like to I call it the rubber band theory because some people are those little teeny tiny braces rubber bands, right? If I ask someone to stretch from, you know, even a little bit, they can't do it. They're gonna snap.

Amy Dardis 49:51

They're gonna snap.

Speaker 2 49:52

Some people are those giant industrial rubber bands. They can go, they can be something and be something totally different all day long. And they're really good at getting outside of that comfort zone and they're okay with it, and they can tolerate that and it doesn't bother them at all, and they can do it seven days a week. Some people have that ability. The key is knowing who can stretch and who can't. And that's why we use the emotional intelligence tools because the PXT tells us who how is this person wired? The emotional intelligence tools tell us can they stretch if we need them to? Because emotional intelligence is is about do I know who I am? Am I what are am I self-aware of my own emotions? Do I know that I'm comfortable or uncomfortable? Right? Some people don't even know, they're not aware. And if I'm aware of where I'm comfortable and where I'm uncomfortable, then I can consciously work at being uncomfortable when I need to to get what it is that I want. Right. But that's the key. The key is they have to be stretching for something that they want. If they don't want it, you're not going to convince them that they have to be something different. So it has to be something that they want. And if they have, if it's something that they want, then they can stretch or work at getting uncomfortable. Um, so that's why. So that's the rubber band theory. It's how far can they stretch and for how long can they sustain that stretch? And we use the emotional intelligence tools to help us determine can that person stretch? Do they want to stretch? And let's have that conversation before they join our organization. We're asking you to stretch. Do you want to do that? For how long can you hold that? Because if they don't go back to how they're wired, that's how they if they go back to where they're wired, that's how they recharge batteries. If we're doing nothing but depleting batteries all week long, then they better on the weekends go back to recharging them or they're not going to have anything left for the next week.

Amy Dardis 51:51

That what happens over time is that year, year after year is that you get to that point where that weekend is not enough, you know, and it's just like, and then you feel that.

Speaker 2 52:03

See, when you're at when you ask someone to stretch too far for too long, that's when we actually see physical sickness. People get ill, they get cancer, they get heart, they have heart attacks, they, you know, get sick, physically sick. And we blame it on health. Well, part of health is our stress and our work and who we are and how we're wired, right? Yeah. So when we ask someone to stretch for too long, too far for too long, we get this, we get physical sickness, we get mental breakdowns, we get burnout. I can't do that anymore.

Amy Dardis 52:37

Getting to a point, I was in a role that

Nine Gears That Drive Retention

Amy Dardis 52:40

I had loved, but it had it had been evolving over time. And as the role was evolving, so was I. And so I was starting to hone in more and more and more on my natural wiring and recognizing that the role I was in required less of my natural wiring and more of something else. And so here I'm stretching more and more and more, and I'm recognizing it. I'm like, man, I'm I'm in a role and I know that I am stretching and I'm forcing myself to stretch. And I was like, I can do this, I can do this, like, you know, but then it it started taking a toll and it was I was dealing with like severe anxiety. I like my my chest was like tight all the time. I I mean, there were days where I was just like, I have to just sit go lay down because I have so much pressure in my chest and I can't breathe. And knowing I'm like, this is anxiety and this is from work. And I would get to the weekends and I would just crash, you know, and it would just be like, and then Sunday would come around and I'd be like, all right, here we go again, you know. And I was just like forcing myself put to push through and I was aware of like why it was happening. And then eventually I did I did leave that role, but it wasn't, and even then it wasn't like the culture wasn't bad, the team wasn't bad, the leadership wasn't bad. It it was it that specifically had to do with the role itself and not fitting where I really wanted to spend my time because I was tired of stretching all the time and I didn't want to anymore.

Speaker 2 54:12

Yep. My dad, same thing happened to him, Amy. He he actually ended up working. I don't know if you're familiar with the Pacific Northwest, but he worked two hours away from his home and he would and he loved his job. He loved his well, he loved what he was doing, right? The word, right? There's a difference when you don't like the leadership, when there's a lot of stress coming down from the top, right? And so that's what was happening for him is um there was so much stress coming from the top that he would sit in the parking lot in the mornings and have panic attacks on it before going into the office. But he was driving two hours one way to get to work because he loved the work. But this is what we're doing to employees. This is what we're doing. We're we're creating, you know, you you evolved because the role said you needed to. And you were likely taught, and society told you that growth, we have to grow, right? You have to be, you have to continue to evolve. You have to, well, that's yeah, it's true to a certain extent, but if you're really good at something and you love what you're doing and you're happy doing it, why do I have to do something different? Yes. Why can't I not just continue to be good at what I do? Why is that not valuable to an organization? Right. I had my husband's former employer actually told him, we're putting you into a leadership role within three years, you better move up or we'll move you out. Wow. Like you can't, so we're we're not even okay with longevity in the middle ranks, right? And so it's why can't someone just be good at that job?

Amy Dardis 55:58

Yeah. Yeah. Or like there's you always have to move towards management. Like if you're like you can't just be a salesperson your whole career, the the next step up is clearly moving from sales into management. But it's like there's a lot of people who are just really great at sales, and there's nothing else they should be doing except just selling. And that's okay. Like it's not always more. That's exactly right.

Speaker 2 56:24

And it's okay if you don't know, right? Like I'm guessing in your situation, you were like, oh, okay, yeah, I do want to grow. I do want to try things, I do want to do that's okay. But you realized the key is realizing, right? As opposed to my dad, who said, No, I have to keep doing this because this is my livelihood, this is my career, this is my family, right? I have to do this for my family. You're actually doing the family a disservice by not leaving and finding something that fits you better. So you had the wherewithal to realize this isn't good for me, this isn't good for my family. I need to do something different. So kudos to you.

Amy Dardis 57:04

But a lot of people don't have that, don't, which is why things like this are so important. I think having this level of self-awareness and knowing that there are tools out there that can help you like determine this and validate or affirm these feelings that you think are like, oh, I'm just being lazy or oh, I'm just being, I just need to suck it up, you know, and I just need to push through and I'll get over it. And it's like, no, there's there's actually let let me bring some light to this how, why you're feeling this way. And it's not and it's an indicator.

Speaker 2 57:37

Psychology is a real thing. And we are psychologically wired in certain ways. It's just, it's just who we are as human beings. And it you can fight that as much as you want to fight it, but sucking it up is not an effective way to manage your life. It does not, it does not produce good results ultimately. It's that's just ignoring. That's just ignoring what is actually happening. So understand what's happening and fix it, right? Don't ignore it, but also don't. I think there's a flip side to that, which is I'm just gonna job hop, right? I'm just gonna this, I I'm I'm a little bit uncomfortable here. So I need to go find a different role. Oh, I'm a little bit uncomfortable here. No, there's nothing wrong with being uncomfortable. It's knowing why am I being uncomfortable? What am I being uncomfortable for? And is that valuable to me or not? Because sometimes we have to be uncomfortable. That's okay. But the key is knowing why am I being uncomfortable? And am I okay with being uncomfortable for this specific outcome or not? You can't just run every time you get uncomfortable either. There, there's there's a balance there. So again, it like you said, it's the understanding that's the most important part.

Amy Dardis 58:55

And even a lot of people run to the same role over and over again, just with different companies. And it's like you're in the wrong role, and you this is but you're just you're headed down the path thinking the next company is going to be different, except not recognizing that you actually hate the work and that's why you're not succeeding. Did you ever did did you and your dad end ever end up like having a conversation? Did he end up coming to a realization of like why why he felt the way he did all those years?

Speaker 2 59:27

No, my dad's not the kind of person you can have that kind of conversation with. He's the suck it up. You just gotta deal, which is what got him where he was, right? So no, we weren't, we never had that conversation. But he did end up retiring about two or three years early because he could not, he couldn't handle he was having panic attacks every day. Yeah. He had a two-hour commute, and the entire way he was worrying about being in the office with that leader and that management team. And he was just like, I can't do this anymore. So he ended up retiring a few years early,

Rubber Band Theory Stress And Final Takeaways

Speaker 2 1:00:00

unfortunately.

Amy Dardis 1:00:02

Man, that sucks.

Speaker 2 1:00:04

Yeah.

Amy Dardis 1:00:05

And then final question would be this idea. We talked a little bit about like high like a hiring system, but in the sense that I there's a um maybe a misconception that hiring systems or things like a PXT assessment are just for like bigger businesses, like just for people who have lots of employees. But you actually don't even work with a lot of, I mean, you work with all kinds of sizes, but you said a lot of them are actually for smaller businesses, and they can even be more impactful because a smaller team means each person carries more weight.

Speaker 2 1:00:46

In a smaller organization, you feel the effects of a bad employee really quickly. In a larger organization, that can hide, right? There's 10 other people on the team, other team members start picking up the slack. When someone's not performing in an organization, in a smaller organization, it hurts quick. You feel that pain. And so they are often the ones that want a solution more, right? They're the ones that are like, I gotta figure this out because this is killing me. And so they're more receptive to using a lot of there are corporations that use tools too because they know they work, but it's more just a process in the system. They're not necessarily, I don't think they're using it to their full value because it's just checking a box for them. Once you get to certain levels of corporations, it becomes more bureaucratic than it does consultative. Does that make sense? Yeah. Because of the size, it's purely a size thing. Yeah.

Amy Dardis 1:01:48

But you end up a lot of your work is with like smaller one owner operator, smaller businesses, service, a lot of like construction, contracting, wealth management, you know, that very people-driven service businesses that it's like, yeah, this is incredibly valuable, huge. And getting this one starting with getting your hiring process right, because then you do more. I mean, there's like the that's attract by it, but then there's engage and the engage and keep side of things, but none of that really is nearly as impactful if you don't have this hiring part right first. Right. All of those nine things that we talked about.

Speaker 2 1:02:34

Uh if you look at the on my website, hiringstrategies.com, there's at the bottom of the homepage, you'll see the nine things. And you'll see that those nine cogs, those nine wheels are spinning off attract, engage, and keep. But it's not each one of those things impacts the other. That's why there are cogs in the system. If one of them gets stuck or stopped, you you can't attract. You can't engage, you can't keep. You have to be doing all nine of those things at the same time. They all have to be flowing and working, otherwise the system gets gummed up. Yeah. So yeah, it's important in large organizations too, but in small organizations, that system is so lean that one tiny thing can throw off the whole thing. Can throw, yeah.

Amy Dardis 1:03:25

Huge impact, which is why it's just more important than ever, I think. This well, I think in general, no matter what, no matter the size or the person or the role, I think everyone's life and time on, I mean, it all matters.

Speaker 2 1:03:39

So yeah, if we haven't learned anything in the last five years, six years since COVID is, you know, our time on this planet is precious and uh it's a blip on the radar screen and it's gone before we know it. So making sure that every day you're doing something that fulfills you and brings you joy does not mean every day is gonna be good and happy. No. But overall, what you do every day should bring you fulfillment and have purpose and meaning in your own life. And if it does, then that means that you're gonna be more prepared to serve your families, to serve your communities. And that's what it's all about.

Amy Dardis 1:04:21

I agree. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for the time and all the insight today. I will link Kim's company, hiringstrategies.com. And then she's all you can also follow and connect with her on LinkedIn. But that is all for this episode, and I will see you guys next time.